What makes a team? The Head Coach and his system or a Franchise QB? Bill Walsh or Joe Montana? Tony Dungy or Peyton Manning? Chuck Knoll or Terry Bradshaw? Everything being equal, what would make a team better an average coach with an alright system and Joe Montana? OR Bill Walsh and an average NFL QB? If you want a time period, say 5 years of EVERYTHING on the team being equal. Who would make the 2010 Rams better?
the colts didnt miss a beat with jim caldwell. QB wins this one. theres exceptions (like brady and the patriots) where brady becomes "elite" but really its the system which was proven by cassel, but its still a tough argument to make. peyton was an elite talent from day one while brady wasnt and im ot saying that brady couldnt play elsewhere but the system shaped him into the QB he is today more so than peyton
precisely. Both jobs are extremely important on the field but coaching/schemes is what creates wins and championships most of the time. Steve Young was considered an overrated QB before he got to San Fran. John Elway could never win that elusive SB until Shanny put together a team built on running and defense. Jim Plunkett was a major failure before getting to Oakland. Hell, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won SB's recently .......... that should be nuff said ..............
every great coach in theory should be able to make their system work with a mediocre system QB, if you cant get production out of anything but a superstar you simply arent a great coach. however a superstar QB can in theory make any coach look great. For instance roethlisberger won a superbowl with arians calling the shots (tomlin doesnt count cause hes a cat) but thats because hes an elite QB. back when they won the first one, they won because of play calling and coaching from whiz, ben was just along for the ride and was by no means an elite QB. pretty simple example of it, i think a rookie or 2nd yea ben was kind of a luxury compared to most guys you would think of as system QBs but it was a good example. think about minnesota. Childress couldnt get any passing game going with ay of the misfits going through there, hes not a bad coach but i wouldnt call him great either...brett favre, an elite QB comes in, tears crap up, skyrockets sydney rice from 4th on the depth chart to 1st and among the best in the league and creates a potent passing attack making childress look great, it will be worth watching what happens to childress if favre ever retires
obviously good qb's can make an offense better. however, there were systems/coaches that favre looked really BAD working within ......................
favre has always been a questionable decision maker, but an elite talent nonetheless. and if all things are equal like the original post says ill take the worst coach in the league with favre and the 2009 vikings roster before i would take the best coach in the NFL and a below average QB with the rest of the vikings roster or ill take ben roethlisberger with a crap bag like arians before id take the most brilliant offensive mind and joey harrington this is an argument that cant really be won cause theres always examples of someone who proves the other side wrong. im going with elite QB though...
I'm not sure on this one. I believe it's more the system and what players you have surrounding you. I mean Trent Dilfer sucked, but he won a superbowl. That was mainly due to the cast he had around him especially on defense. Yeah, the colts didn't miss a beat the Caldwell coming in, but he inherited and fully built team and runs the same damn plan. If he had to build up a team around manning and incorporate a different plan how would it have gone. How about if Manning wasn't there? It's a tough call, but I think you can win the a good coach, good teammates, and a decent QB.
I ultimately think the QB is the one I would select as well. K's example with Roethlisberger pretty much says it all in my book. However, if you are building a franchise, I think a Head Coach and his system (see: Bill Walsh) can be put in place and the proper QB selected could make that system work and make that guy look like an elite QB (see: Tom Brady.) There have been many many situations where it just wasn't the right QB for the offensive system. Obviously, the key is to have the right combination. The Childress example isn't really a great example. For arguments sake, Childress is running Favre's system. Favre probably knows a more about that offense than Childress. Bill Parcells went from Phill Simms to Jeff Hostetler and won a Super Bowl. Chuck Knoll went from Terry Bradshaw to Mike Kruczek (as a rookie) and rattled off 6 wins en route to a Championship game.
' Montana was drafted by Walsh specifically to fit the system that he was trying to implement. Not to say he wouldn't have been great anyways, but it had to help to have a coach right off the bat who views you as the ideal guy for his plan, and whose plan ends up revolutionizing the game Manning was already an elite qb, probably the best in the league, before Dungy got there. IMO he would have gotten a ring at some point with or without Dungy. Bradshaw wasn't close to being the qb the first two were. He was a poor mans Favre who rode the defense and run game to his championships, so I'd have to give that to Noll.
if childress is running favres system doesnt that show how much a great QB makes the difference? childress ran childress's system with clowns like jackson and bollinger and holcomb with no success. so maybe mediocre coach and great QB? seems like a homerun example for my argument **********Automerged Doublepost********** bradshaw was an elite athlete in college....hes the kind of guy that us that are big in the draft get boners about now. ive said for years bradshaw couldnt play in todays league but he was about as good as they came back in the day
I'd agree that Manning and Montana are better than Bradshaw...totally different eras as well so it's hard to compare them. But in 78 and 79 or maybe 79 and 80 they rode the arm of Bradshaw...I think he threw for 3500 yards or so and back then it was pretty good to throw for that amount. Now it's nothing to throw for that. But there are examples that go either way...like I said. Noll rattled off 6 wins in a row with a rookie QB during a Championship run. Montana was pretty good in KC. It would...I read your initial post wrong.
Great question Ward. I dont know if there is a right/wrong awnser K-Train had a great example with Manning/Caldwell. But conversely you have Walsh/Seifort winning ballgame with the likes of Bono/Garcia/Grbeck in SF. A more reasonable example of coach's making the QB would be Denver with Shanny/Kubiak. They turned Brian Griese and Jake Plummer into Pro Bowl QB's (I know Griese made one in Denver, IIRC Plummer made one too), but the farthest either of those two got was the AFCC game with Plummer in 2006, and they got rocked. Romo is a reasonable counter to that. Franchise QB with a mediocre coach thats only won 1 playoff game I'll say this, which I guess is my answer. If I was handed a team like Saint Louis, and I was told i could either have Peyton Manning (shave a few years off because he is getting up there.......lets say a 27 year old manning) or Bill Billicheck, I would take Billicheck
I think you have to look at it kinda in the same manner as baseball. Remember back in the little leagues when you had the best pitcher on your team and he did all the work and the rest of the team just stood there at there positions? It's like that when you have a QB like Manning. But I think having a really good Coach could teach the average QB little trick plays or how to read the field better and the rest of the team for that manner instead of just relying on the QB to pick up the slack for everyone else.
I'd have to say it's a combination more often than not. The right qb fitting into the right system makes the perfect storm. Would Tom Brady and Joe Montana be great if they were crammed into a system that didn't fit their abilities and personality? Take Kurt Warner for example. When he was with the Giants it just didn't work but when he went to Arizona and the system was there for his abilitie....boom...off go the Cards. Would Joe Montana still have been a great qb in another system? Hard to say but if he'd been expected to bomb it downfield for the Raiders, it probably wouldn't have worked. As far as the Manning/Caldwell example.....did the system change all that much from Dungy? Who was the offensive co-ordinator?? I'd say Caldwell just was smart enough to say go ahead and do what you do Peyton. So again.....I'd say it has to be a combination. Dilfer and Brad Johnson had a great year and won rings but were they under great coaches or just in the right system and the right time?
