Discussion in 'Baseball Talk' started by themush, Jan 5, 2009.
Ibenez will get on base more, hit more homers and strikeout less. I'm still fine with the deal.
Ibanez won't get on base more. Pat consistently tops Ibanez in OB & OPS. Factor in the deals signed by both, and their ages, I would prefer Burrell still being here.
Exactly. Pat draws way more walks. Ibanez will hit for a better average and strike out less, but he won't touch Pat's OBP.
Our best OBP guy in the lineup next year will probably be Werth.
Overpaid and too long a deal...imo. Hopefully my opinion is wrong...
You people are giving pat too much credit, Dude was far from a clutch player and benefitted from a very hitter friendly ballpark at times.
It's not giving Pat so much credit as it is that we probably aren't getting better benefit. Are you seriously not concerned about Ibanez's age?
Far from clutch? Since when. The past two years alone:
-Game tying homerun off Wagner last year in NY (won the game in extras)
-8th inning homer off Wagner last year in Philly that cut the Mets' lead to one run and allowed us to win it in the ninth (not to mention he basically carried us to the division title offensively the second half of 07)
-Game winning RBI double in the 8th inning against the Marlins this year(think Dawk went to that game)
-Late homer in Milwaukee against the Brewers that ended up being the winning run
-10th inning 2-run homerun against SF with two strikes, two outs and the Phils down by one.
-Game-tying two-run homerun in the literally all ninth-inning comeback against Valverde after Chacon had shut down the offense for eight innings (won the game on passed ball strike three to Jenkins, then double by Feliz)
-RBI single in the bottom of the eighth against the Brewers (came before Victorino's three-run shot blew the game open) in the first game of a double-header against the Brewers. Probably the most important series of the regular season.
-*Not sure if you would consider this clutch, but two homeruns in the clinching Game 4 of the NLDS. The first of which really set the tone for the game.
-Game winning homer in Game 1 of the NLCS
-And of course, his leadoff double in the bottom of the 7th of Game 5 of the World Series. Bruntlett scored what would be the winning run, but we all know who set the table.
He had countless clutch hits as a Phillie.
he has as many if not more GIDP's and strikeouts with less than 2 outs or 2 outs and RISP. I knew someone would string together some moments, of course. his 1 world series hit was a big one, but he only had 1 hit in the world series. I love and have loved pat the bat, maybe not as much as my wife love's his butt, but c'mon, the dude has had tons of moments that he blew it, where some of those other moments may not have been needed. and if you are going to tell me that you don't remember times where you were like, FREAKING PAT THE SCRUB BLEW IT AGAIN, then I would say you are lying. The guy has batted above .258 three times in his career and once was .260.
His average with 2 outs and RISP a couple years ago was horrible, but that's one year and can be said for a lot of players, especially on this team which seems to struggle in that kind of situation.
And it may seem like he grounds into a ton of double plays, but he only did so 10 times this year. That's one less than our leadoff hitter and only one more than Chase Utley, our best hitter in 2008.
Batting average is a pretty poor stat to use in an evaluation of a player if you're looking at it by itself. OBP is MUCH more telling, after all, the goal of hitting is to get on base. He only had three years in which his OBP was under .360 and one of those was .359. To give you a better perception of how valuable that is, our current leadoff hitter has never come within .010 points of that .359 OBP in his career. His .400 OBP in 2008 was a huge part of our success, more than made up for his low average, and will be missed next year.
It's only one World Series hit, but it's such a small sample size. Ruiz was amazing in the World Series, does that make him a great player? Not to mention that, once again, his average doesn't tell the whole story. He also had multiple walks in the Classic, including one RBI walk in Game 4.
Sure there were times when I was frustrated with the guy. No one in Philly can say otherwise. In fact, I was counting down to the day his contract expired for the majority of his time here (all but his first couple of years and last two years). However, he was EXTREMELY underrated and underappreciated during his time in Philly. Players like PTB are very valuable hard to come by and it will be easy to see that next year when he's not with us anymore.
I don't think he will be missed as much as some might think. I agree that he has been clutch at times, but he has blown it much more than he was clutch in my memory. Yeah he was clutch this past season and we won the world series, so it's easy to point out that he was clutch this season and we won, but for most of his career, I would dread seeing him come to the plate in a clutch situation and I just don't think that his career is defined by this one season and that it will be defined by the rest of his rather mediocre seasons. If this past year was a career year for him, then that is not that great. AGE isn't as much a factor in baseball as it is in other sports.
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I've waited so long for this championship and all the guys on the 08 team will hold a special place in my heart (as corny as it sounds). The lasting image of Burrell for me will be the double in game 5 and him leading the parade on the Clydesdales. It may have just been one hit, but it meant so much, that imo, it can override all the other bad memories.
Your last statement is true, but only to a certain extent. Age still does play a factor and Ibanez is very old. He's 36 and it's likely he'll soon be on the decline. He also is probably not going to be a starting caliber OF and the end of the deal.
Don't get me wrong, I like Ibanez as a hitter, love him as a clubhouse guy and think he will do well for this team. I don't mean to sound as if he sucks or that our team is much much worse off with him. I just feel that given the choice between Burrell and Ibanez, I would take Burrell.
I'd take Burrell if I had a choice between him and Ibanez...no brainer for me. Their career numbers are pretty close and Ibanez has played about 5 more seasons...
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to burnout2oo7 again.
i think after all pats given me as a fan. the first baseball card i got as a kid was pat burrell. for the first 2 or 3 years i was watching the phils, the only guy i knew pat. anyone whoes been a fan of the team for 20, 30 or 40+ plus years wont feel the same way i do, but pats been a phillie since i started watching baseball. as far as im concerned, ibanez could break every heckin record in the book, and he still would replace pat burrell
Agreed. He definitely transcended two completely different eras in terms of Phillies baseball. I became a pretty serious Phillies fan a little before Pat joined the big league team. There are guys from those crummy teams that I still love (and some I just "remember") and have some fond memories of. Recently, though, they've been replaced.
Then it was Ron Gant, Doug Glanville, Desi Relaford (in no way did I like them), Travis Lee, Lieberthal, J-Roll, and Pat Burrell. Now it is Utley, Howard, Hamels, Victorino, Dobbs, J-Roll, Burrell, etc. J-Roll and Burrell are the only two guys who connect the bridge. It's weird to see a guy who has been around the team as long as you have been a fan of leave and even if they weren't always the greatest, it's sad.
for sure 2008 and his help in 2008 will hold a special place in my heart and mind forever, but it won't cloud my belief that he is at best a mediocre player for his career overall.
that last post made me understand your mindset, the fact that you associate ron freaking atlanta brave a-hole gant with the Phillies is just wrong.
Again, I'll reiterate that I love Pat the Bat and have loved him, but I'm not going to blindly say that deserves to be our 6-7 inning left fielder just because of a few clutch hits in the year we won the world series. This isn't Mike Schmidt people.
I still wouldn't call him "mediocre". Take a look at his OPS over the years in comparison to other great players.
What you can say is that he probably hasn't lived up to his bill as a number one overall pick. This is why he's been so underappreciated and underrated. People expected premier-player numbers from him from the start of his career and never lowered their expectations, even when he showed he wasn't going to be a hall of famer. I think those expectations cloud people's perception of Pat moreso than this past year has.
They don't cloud mine, let me say this again. I LOVE PAT AND WHAT HE DID THIS YEAR. I AM NOT INSULTING OR SAYING THAT I DON"T LIKE HIM. however, I wouldn't call him underrated at all. If anything, overpaid.
underrated is a guy that performs at a level that people don't give him credit for. He has been supposedly ready to break out for a long time. That has never happened and that won't change no matter how many walks he gets or has gotten
Great signing for the Rays
Separate names with a comma.